Mon 10 Apr 2006
Reading Christina’s blog has shocked me from time to time.
No, she doesn’t write anything obscene but reports about the German school system and its shortcomings and the poor ranking Germany got in the PISA study as well as Vernor Munoz’s critic of the German School system. Being a German myself I’m quite distressed to read that Germany is amongst the lowest ranking countries in the PISA study. And I really would like to make sense of all of this. Is Germany’s school system really this bad or is the PISA study not all that accurate when it comes to the results and how they’ve been interpreted?
I have always had quite a high opinion of the German education system which makes what I read even more distressing. I’m sure that my opinion is based on my own positive experiences at school. Maybe this is much more typical for a girl than a boy, but I’ve always enjoyed school. Also I have always been to good schools with a high standard. So my view is possibly totally biased but I don’t really want to believe that the entire school system in Germany is doomed.
Well here are some of my questions and uncertainties. Maybe you can help me to find an answer to some of them.
The PISA study tests 15-year olds performance but I’m wondering whether countries where students start school later are automatically disadvantaged. At 15 years Germany’s students will only be in year 9 but Australia’s in year 10.
Vernor Munoz (as well as Christina) critizise the early start of High School and therefore the separation into different achievement levels. When I went to school (and maybe this has just changed since then) only the CDU-run states started High School in year 5 but all SPD-run states’ students didn’t start High School until year 7. Shouldn’t this criticism only be directed at the CDU-run states?
According to the ranking Australia did very well in the PISA study but I have my own doubts about the school system here and until now would have always preferred Germany’s.
Quite a large percentage of students here go to private schools with incredibly high fees. Is that a reflecion of the good results? If German parents payed a similar amount to Australian parents for their children’s education would they receive a better education for their children (or better results in PISA at least)?
And in regards to the PISA findings that children of Academics are much more likely to go to a Gymnasium in Germany what does that say about the rich and the poor in Australia? Michael has written a post about that if you’re interested to find out: the rich, the poor and public education.
I am really quite confused about this whole issue. Maybe you’ve got something worthwhile to add or enlighten me.
April 10th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
Hallo Franzie, danke fuer dein Email. Ich freue mich auch auf Freitag. ich habe auch vermisst - ja es ist zu lange seit ich euch alle gesehen habe!
The big point about schooling Franzie is that these kind of international comparisons are ultimately not very helpful - there are so many varients between states, between regions, between teachers, between children. One child can receive a wonderful education and another not such a great one from the same school. It depends so much on the attitude of the child, their support structures, the teachers they have, and how all this correlates with their natural aptitudes etc.
The PISA study was discussed alot while I was in Germany. There may be something in it, but I certainly wouldn’t take it too seriously - the tests were different in each country and so an objective comparison is almost impossible. As far as I know, High School starts in year 5 most places now - certainly its like that in Schleswig-Holstein, and thats traditionally (although not at the moment) an SPD state.
I certainly have a problem with the way students in Germany are divided so young - before they are hardly formed at all - and in a way that is quite final/very hard to change. Its sets up hierarchy - both socially and psychologically - from a very young age. The positive side of the system is that what is taught at Gymnasiums is of a very high standard.
Yes alot of people go to private schools here, but one certainly doesn’t have too, and I by no means think that they necessarily receive a better education. They have more extensive/sophisticated facilities, but that often has little to do with the quality of their education. A case in point is the Springwood High/Blue Mtns Grammer comparison. I remember once going to see a theatre production at Grammer, where they had the most ridiculously elaborate costumes and facilities (seriously just dripping money, thousands of dollars), yet the production was terrible. The kids had obviously not engaged in the text in a meaningful way, they had no respect for the process or their own work (constantly laughing on stage etc). Comparing this to all the great theatre that is produced at Springwood High School - where it is taken very seriously, the kids work really hard, are very involved in the creative process and invest alot of pride in what they accomplish. Learning to think, to create, to produce, to relate - these skills depand so little on money. (They do depend alot, however, on the teachers - and that, unfortunately, is a lucky-dip. Every school has brilliant ones and not-so-good ones. You just have to trust that they even out. My history teachers changed my life, totally broadened my mind - and thats what stays with me, not that I had a very average maths teacher and am not so confident in that area).
Going back to Grammer - And how are children at such schools expected to learn the value of things in such an environment? And to what extent are they exposed to a value system that doesn’t revolve around money?
I thought alot about schooling when I came to study law here at sydney uni and was part of a tiny minority of students who went to public schools. I thought alot about how the elite reproduces itself through elite education, and it made me very passionate about the importance of public schools for social equality. I’m very proud I went to a state high school here, and I did receive an excellent education - an education that I am appreciating more and more at uni, where I realise that not everyone here was as well prepared by their teachers as I was. But then other people have mush more difficult experiences - once again, generalisations about these things are rather unhelpful, if not impossible.
Well there is a few thoughts! maybe we can continue discussion on Friday. Now I’ve got to get back to my Freud assessment task!
Looking forward to seeing you Franzie (and Dirk is looking forward to meeting you too),
Tasha
April 10th, 2006 at 9:00 pm
So sorry to shock you,
but yes, it really is this bad. And not just based on the PISA results. You can basically forget about those, but if you live in Germany and send your children to German public schools you can see the inadequacies right in front of you every day.
All children in all states now start secondary school after year 4. The “Orientierungsstufe” was abolished a couple of years ago as an “improvement” (ha ha) to the school system. As I’ve said, starting high school in year 5 means you’re basically sealing the fate of a 9 or 10 yr old before he’s even had a chance to prove himself. The three-tiered system has proved to be archaic and elitist. Germany and Austria are now the only countries in the world still using this system. What does that say about its relevance in today’s society?
I’m not sure if the PISA test included private schools. I would think not. More and more German parents are deciding to send their children to private schools or are even starting their own schools because they are so unhappy with the public school system and want to give their children a better chance. After- school homework help and tutoring businesses are booming because the children are just not being taught properly and parents are afraid for their futures, realizing that getting the Abitur is really the only way of getting anywhere these days.
Even “good” schools are in a dismal condition - students are being forced to clean their own classrooms and there is no money being spent on renovations and improvements. Class sizes are much too large, teachers are poorly trained (and being “Beamter” cannot be so easily fired,unfortunately) and German students spend fewer hours in school than their counterparts elsewhere. This is now a problem with schools who are switching from the 13 yr to the 12 yr Abitur program. Instead of working over the curriculum and taking out unecessary material (there’s way too much rote learning going on), they are now trying to squeeze 9 years of learning into 8, keeping the “afternoons” free system intact. There is now the trend toward Ganztagsschulen, but this also seems to be failing miserably because not enough thought was put into it in the first place.
Every state does what it wants when it comes to schooling - there is no fixed Germany-wide curriculum or testing, the books vary from school to school as does the subject matter. It can’t be right that students in Bremen are up to 2 years behind their peers in Bavaria, can it? That seems totally unfair to me.
What really bothers me is the inequality of the whole thing. Sure, if your kids get good enough marks to attend the Gymnasium, then the chances of them getting a decent education are pretty good, but what about all the rest of the children? Are they not also Germany’s future? Don’t ALL children have the right to the same education? Gifted children, those with learning disabilities and foreign children often get left out in the cold in the German school system. I guess you’ve heard about the terrible situation in Berlin right now with the Rütli (Haupt)Schule and the student violence going on there? Another exampe of how foreign integration has failed in Germany.
Franzie - I’ll send you a bunch of links and an article from the Economist that isn’t available online. There’s some good information in there for you to read when you have time.
April 12th, 2006 at 9:19 am
Hi Fran,
Unfortunately I have to pretty much agree with what Christina has said. That’s not to say that the Australian system doesn’t also have enormous flaws too.
I think the flaws in Germany are much more structural and ingrained, whereas the flaws in the Australian system are mostly based on lack of funding and an overall lack of prioritisation and support from all levels of government. In Australia, if the funding was increased, the problems in the education system would be dramatically reduced. In Germany, the whole system needs a complete restructure to make it fairer and more internationally comparable.
But, I think the primary school system in both countries is OK (just shorter in Germany) so if you send your kids to primary school in Germany I don’t think they’ll be disadvantaged when the eventually come back to Oz for high school.
If you like, I could put you in touch with my sister whose two girls are in primary school in Germany right now.
Look forward to seeing you sometime soon.
Cheers,
Alex
April 12th, 2006 at 6:22 pm
Compared to the English school system the German one seems quite good. But then I only have experience with the primary school level though. I have read studies that suggest that kids perform better if they attend school later. Our child started school just before her 7th birthday. In comparision I started school in UK just after my 5th Birthday.
But its all relative. I teach our child after school in a very informal way, helping to improve her maths, geography, history, physics & biology knowledge. I do this not because I think the education system will fail her, but to help nurture her interest in learning.
April 19th, 2006 at 7:09 am
Hi Franzie!!
Wie gehts dir?
The main point I heard from the pisa study was that migrant children and children from dissadvantaged famillies had very little chance of attending University in Germany.
Deciding for children as young as 8 whether or not they are fit to complete their Abitur and therefore go to university is, of course, unfair. The whole idea makes me quite sad when I think of all those children who have that decision made for them.
I think once you are in the Gymnasium the standard varies a lot as well. For the record I have heard that Bavaria has the highest standard!
As for the Australian education system the way that ever increasing amounts of public money in channeled into the private school system under the pertext of parental ‘choice’ in very hard to understand.
But Australians seem very attatched as you might remember from the last federal election! The population seemed quite upset at Latham’s plan to cut back public spending to the elite private schools.
However wherever you are I think so much learning takes place in the home and in the interest shown by perants in what their children are learning.
April 24th, 2006 at 10:23 pm
Thank you for all your comments!!
I have been thinking about this lots. So in reply I wrote a new post as I just don’t seem to be able to explain myself in a short comment I seem to need a full page rambling before I’ve managed to get everything down that I want to say.
So if you’re interested in discussing this more read the new post.
May 8th, 2006 at 9:09 pm
[...] Is it really this bad? according to this Deutsch Welle article it really is (Christina will tell me now “told you so” but hey, I need to figure it out myself). [...]
June 24th, 2006 at 9:18 pm
Germans are living in the fourth world nd more i can not say.
Their education nd medical care is very low, not the lowest in the world but nearly
June 26th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
Hi there,
thanks for your comment.
I’d be really interested to hear why you think the German education system or health care is comparable to that of developing countries (or even worse, as you seem to suggest)??? Do you know of any good articles that report on that??
June 26th, 2006 at 8:20 pm
Hi Franzie,
thanks for the ques… surely i can let u know some points waht we all see nd know about german situation or even some guys have gone thru by themselves
To go step by step nd to reveal u the real truth about geman eductaion, it will take the whole 20 yrs back … but as it is impossible, need to tell u some important points.. here u can follow up some
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/08/06/german.school.shock.ap/
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1121
http://bb.focus.msn.de/focus/viewtopic.php?t=77328
nd about german docs here u can follw up more
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060623/ap_on_he_me/germany_fleeing_doctors
nd here, a friend of us wrote …….
I, too, have lost children to the German government.
> My parental authority was undermined the day the
> children entered Kindergarden at age 3. I was told
> by
> everyone, how I had to send my children to the
> Kindergarden, as it was “good” for the child to have
> friends. Now the government has been contemplating
> since last Fall to make it mandatory, that all
> children attend Kindergarden, starting at the young
> age of 3, whether you like it or not.
>
> I feel like a refugee here, even though I am an
> american, born in Baltimore raised in Rochester, we
> have been separated from my husband, and my son’s
> father. We’re here, he’s still back in Germany. My
> husband is German, but the reason he is still there
> is
> because he has a good job there, and has seniority
> within his company. It would be not a wise idea to
> give up our financial stability. He has worked hard
> to
> get where he is now, and in about 15 yrs. he will be
> able to retire.
>
> I still have contact with what is going on in
> Germany,
> and it makes the hair stand on my arms and legs. I
> have been trying to find ways to bring one family
> over
> here in particular. It’s been hard…. and we feel
> that HSLDA has turned it’s back on the homeschoolers
> in Germany, because they feel there is nothing they
> can do. A few yrs. ago, with the help of one of
> HSLDA’s main people, an association was formed
> called
> SCHUZH, similar to HSLDA, only alot smaller. They
> had
> such a hard time in Germany, that after about 5
> yrs.,
> the organization is on the verge of breaking down.
> The
> main persons/spokespeople, have fled the country,
> because they could not stand the pressures of the
> government. They just “upped and left”, making the
> rest of us homeschoolers there feeling even more
> vulnerable to the pressures of the German
> government.
>
> About two weeks ago, I received an email, that a
> German family was fleeing the country to go to
> Belgium, and now that I read this article, I’m
> afraid
> this family is not all that better off. They fled
> the
> country because the authorities in Germany were
> going
> to take their child away from them. Last week, a
> judge
> ruled that a family of 8 or 9 children, I don’t
> remember how many children exactly, but the judge
> ruled that it was unacceptable that the family
> homeschool their children for what they stated were
> for religious reasons. The main reason being that
> they
> were not happy with what goes on in the schools,
> with
> peer pressure, with what is taught in sex education,
> and let me tell you, sex education begins in Germany
> in the elementary grades…. no, even before that! I
> have brought back with me a few magazines called
> “BRAVO”. It’s like looking at a soft pornographic
> periodical for children as young as 6 yrs. old. Many
> Germans don’t feel the same way I do about the
> magazine, but if you could see the magazine for
> yourselves, I believe your mouths would fall open
> and
> yours eyes would widen with disbelief. And if you
> could read some of the articles, you would
> definitely
> understand where I’m coming from.
>
> Well I could go on and on with my encounters…. 28
> yrs. of them… and about the loss of my two girls,
> now 22 and 25, about how my parental rights have
> been
> overruled by the German state, time and time
> again…
> which is why I chose to leave my husband and life in
> Germany behind
>
or malpratcise victims wrote in http://www.aerzte-pfusch.de/Opfer/06/Fehlbehandlungen_unserer_Kinder_070506.html
nd there u can read more nd more about the malpractise nd about the german education system nd german medical system
http://www.germanwatch.org/presse/2004-10-11e.htm(nd hier u can read about germany nd its systems)
June 26th, 2006 at 8:33 pm
Schulpflicht ist ja eigentlich nicht Schlechtes.
Aber wenn die Schulpflicht zu einer reinen Anwesenheitspflicht verkommt steht es schlecht um die Bildung unserer Kinder.
Schulpflicht macht nur dann Sinn, wenn die Schüler davon profitieren können.
Und genau dass kann man leider nicht behaupten.
Wie zu Zeiten der Hexenverfolgung werden Menschen die etwas anders sind verfolgtIch Eigentlich dachten wir das solche Zeiten längst vorüber seien, schreiben wir doch das Jahr 2006.Und zu allem Überfluss können nachweislich ca.4MillionenDeutsche weder lesen noch schreiben.
Trotz Schulpflicht !!!
Die Eltern welche die finanzielle und nervliche Mehrbelastung auf sich nehmen um in Deutschland wenigstens eine kleine Zahl von jungen, gebildeten Menschen hervor zu bringen, sollen auch noch in einer Art Hexenjagd verfolgt und bestraft werden
Zur Krönung dieser Idiotie sollen diese Kinder, die ihren altersgenossen in Sachen Bildung weit voraus sind auch noch gezwungen werden in eine öffentliche Schule zu gehen und all die Werte die sie von ihren Eltern vermittelt bekommen haben verderben zu lassen.????
Das Verhalten der Behörden in Deutschland stellt eine klare Menschenrechtsverletzung dar
June 26th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
nd one important thing was forgotten to be mentioned
Medical English for German Doctors would help the german docs to learn universal doc language too :=))
I have never seen docs like in germany with such poor universal language knowledge.
June 26th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
Nd know some one who has factual medical documents and personal experience. It’s a tragical account of twins born through ceasarean, at 27 weeks, 13 weeks prematurely. It documentates medical negligence occuring in Germany..
It’s an unbelievable situation of the current occurrences, as the twins were born premature, and they have severe medical problems that have been totally disregarded, overseen, misdiagnosed and even medically mistreated. One of the twins has bronchial Pulmonary Dysplasie, something that should have been treated while still an infant. Now the parents have finally fought long and hard for an oxygen machine, as the boy turns blue after 10-15 minutes of normal child play. This child also has a hole in his heart which they didn’t see for yrs
He has yet to get proper treatment, and the parents have been desperately searching for a doctor they can trust. Also the family is being bullied and threatened by a school official, because the twins have been homeschooled. The children are so sick, that they are not able to attend a normal school. They are very susceptible to infections, which could cause severe illness to both twins. . They found out not too long ago, that the doctors neglected to give the one twin medication that would have helped his bronchial Pulmonary Dysplasie and his lungs could have developed properly, but now, at age 9, he has only
June 27th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
sorry, the last line was missing just now
( The child ’s lungs work only