Thank you all for your comments on the previous post (Is it really this bad?) … lots of food for thought!
I wanted to summarize what I come away with and how my understanding is shaping in reply to your comments, which might be a rather lenghthy reply. So I thought a new post might be better than a totally oversized comment.
I can see why my experience of the German education system has been a rather positive one until now and why I couldn’t understand the majority of criticism of the system. I grew up in Land Brandenburg, former East Germany, in a medium size town. When the east took on the West German education system Brandenburg was one of the only Laender that refused to start High School in year 5. Instead they decided to start High School in year 7, which is a much more reasonable age.
Also my hometown Luckenwalde never opened a Hauptschule. Instead we got a Realschule, a Gesamtschule mit gymnasialer Obertstufe and a Gymnasium and doing a Google search I couldn’t find a single Hauptschule in Land Brandenburg but quite a few Gesamtschulen all of which offer the Abitur. Which makes me think that the east must have been quite aware of the problems associated with these strong divisions and strived to be more progressive and inclusive. This quote from an article which Christina sent to me from the Economist.com describes it quite well:
Education has always been a battleground of ideas, particularly since the first Gesamtschulen (comprehensive schools) opened in the mid-1960s. Many on the left saw this type of school as a silver bullet to ensure equal opportunities for all. The right, for its part, made “Save the Gymnasium” its rallying cry. It seems to have won: only about 700 out of over 19,000 secondary schools are now Gesamtschulen.
Being a rather small town, Luckenwalde never had a great immigrant population (if any at all) which also minimizes integration problems like the ones at the Ruetli Hauptschule in Berlin or gang related crime, which is much more common in bigger cities. And I never had to face the problems of disadvantaged minority groups, cause they just weren’t around.
So my view is probably a rather sheltered one. And not having experienced a lot of what the criticism is all about, it probably makes it a bit harder for me to see the problems.
I can see that dividing and therefore labelling children so early in life can have big implications. I have to agree that the three-tiered system seems very elitist in terms of separating high achievers from low achievers, so that the “smart” kids can learn undisturbed, I suppose (don’t know why else that should be a very helpful thing to do).
Yet, from my own experience (and I do admit that this might be a very isolated case) I wouldn’t agree that children are totally stuck once divided. At the end of primary school my brother wasn’t really the studious type so he went to the Realschule. Yet within his 4 years there he really picked up and developed an interest (so did most of the other kids in his class) and hence the majority of his class, him included, went on to do their Abitur at the Gesamtschule. And he’s now doing incredibly well at Uni. So going to the Realschule has actually been quite good for him and has absolutely not limited him in his options for the future. But I do admit that I don’t know the problems associated with big city Hauptschulen and children that are forced to go to the Hauptschule especially when they might not be from a very supportive home where education isn’t valued.
I have to agree with you, Cathy, the home environment seems to have the most influence on a child’s learning and development and maybe that’s where children of immigrant or “working class” families are so severely disadvantaged in particular if they’re not given the option of learning together with children from privileged homes. Which made me think that this is really what it all comes down to: failure to properly integrate children from all backgrounds into one society and education system rather than separating them into two or even three classes.
Primary schools seem to be OK. because the separation doesn’t start until High School. That’s certainly the case in Germany and in Australia many people are happy enough with the public Primary Schools but start sending their children to Private Schools once they start High School. And I do remember that it was quite common in England (I lived there for 7 months) to send children to Private Schools right from the start, which might explain the poor public education even in Primary School. Would you agree with that, Mr. Haddock?
Yet, in High School the problems start as children are divided into a class society. In Australia the privileged kids tend to go to the private schools and in Germany it’s the Gymnasium. What you’re left with are plenty of children from underpriviledged families not being able to mix with and learn together with children who are better off.
Hopefully, with the criticism of the PISA study Gesamtschulen will be on the increase assisting the integration of all students into one society.
Sorry, now it’s turned from an oversized comment into an oversized post but I need to ramble before I work something out, so if I’ve bored you to death I’m very sorry but at least I’m a bit more certain now of what I’m thinking. And if you haven’t fallen of your chair by now, thanks for bearing with me.
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I have gained much knowledge of the german school system in the years that my children were of school age, and was constantly irritated in their logic, which to me seemed very unlogical. I could not understand how they (the teachers) could make the decision of which students were allowed to attend which weiterfuehrende schools based on only 4 years of Grundschule! Or how when they were in the Kindergarten, that they were not allowed to be taught how to read or write, with the reason that ‘that would just confuse the child, when they did start the first grade’. How incredibly stupid to think that. I was also always told by everyone around us, that I should only speak german with the children, so as not to confuse them, so that they may learn one language perfectly… how ludicrious…. How should I converse with them in a language that I was not perfect in myself? The west Germans are a very ‘controlling’ Volk. Control freaks, who cannot live ‘outside’ of the box. I’m sorry to sounding so resentful, but I guess that’s because I still am. I am, afterall, having to live separated from my husband of almost 30 years, because I choose to homeschool my child, and since homeschooling is so illegal, that homeschoolers are being persecuted in Germany, or called religious fundamentalists, that does leave a very bad taste behind.
My youngest son, who is now 14, had a teacher that came from the East… from Thueringen, even she was shocked at the way the schools were run in the West. She couldn’t understand how children could be so cruel to one another. When someone had a birthday, that not all the children would congratulate that child, or the fact that the children just did not get along with each other…. We were talking about first graders!! But the animosities started in Kindergarten already. And the language that was used! She just couldn’t believe her ears… and that was definitely a Bestaestigung of things I had experienced myself all those years before, it wasn’t just me, but also a Pedagoge…. someone who was considered ‘Gelehrt’ and not like me, just an ordinary housewife.
I have lost 2 daughters to the Deutsche Gesellschaft. They are now 23 and 26. They think like most germans do, and cannot agree with me on my issues, especially about homeschooling. They worry that their brother will never be successful to find a job… look who’s talking! Anja has her abitur, but no further studies, no job, Mirga has her Mittlerereife, and has been hanging out at home since 2001. They went to schools… and what did it bring them? They have the Null Bock attitude. They don’t care about anything but themselves, but yet they have learned to live off of others… like parasites. Anja is now married, to a Taugenichts, they have a child, and neither of them work. He likes to drink and play games on his x-box, skateboard, and just chill all day… They collect Hartz IV, they have no other worries. Toll…. I think the Western way of thinking of the German society has everything to do with it. I saw it happening when my girls were in Kindergarten… I told many that the children of that day were going to be the adults of tomorrow… and now after 25 yrs., Germany can reap what it had sowed….
Boy did this end up long… but again, I hope I have not offended anyone, and if so, then all I can say is… If the shoe fits, then wear it. I have met many other Germans who can and do think and live out of the box, and they agree with what I say, and understand, for they have had the same issues, maybe in different ways, but know what it’s all about. It’s sad, but so true, Hitler’s Idealogy still lives on Germany in many subtle ways…. think about it…
Homeschooling is one of those very interesting topics.
It’s illegal in Germany and I’ve heard about parents in Germany going to jail for homeschooling their children.
Here in Australia it seems to be one of the latest ‘fads’ (loads of people are doing it).
I think it’s a brilliant opportunity for some children that would not do so well in a school setting and really benefit from the one-on-one attention.
Parents have an amzing chance to see and help their children learn, but need an awful lot of discipline in order to do it well.
I have seen it done well and for the right motives but, sadly, I’ve also seen it done not so well and for entirely the wrong reasons.